Episode #589

[Michael]

Our April of hyper-posting continues with Episode #589.

In this episode: JD forces Samantha to drive at gunpoint, rendering her and Tempest hostages... Tim receives a call from JD and has to act fast to save his daughter... Travis goes to a family member for help with a plot.

Thanks for reading! I hope to keep things moving at this clip all month with short, snappy installments. Loretta's masked ball is coming up in a matter of episodes!

The above link goes to the Current Episode page. For a permanent link to Episode #589, go here. All past episodes can be accessed in our full Archives.

[Dallas]

Fast paced episode Michael! The car scenes were high action and pretty intense. Samantha is pretty quick on her feet coming up with a plan to get rid of JD, she has her father's brains, that's for sure. I love how the plan is seemingly back firing because Tim got Diane to call the cops ASAP. I also thought it was great how Cassandra was apologizing only for Tim to not really care to hear it. Such a natural instinct to only care about your child being safe. I'm totally curious to see what'll happen now that the cops are on their trail.

Travis going to Ryan was a great twist too. The best part was when Travis was thinking to himself that he wanted to get manipulation advice and he went to Ryan. It was nice that Ryan has seemingly grown up and learned from his previous mistakes.

So looking forward to seeing how the car chase plays out!

d

[capekeintrich]

Michael it was great to sit down and catch up again.

I am the first to admit that I haven't been Tempest's biggest fan but this was a great read. I loved how it was fast paced, it reminded me of a scenes on a crime drama I loved it. Samantha/Tim were great her, made me really like a teen character to kudos.

Travis/Ryan- It was a great scene too and I like that someone finally told Travis exactly how it should be. Danielle to me shouldn't have to move just to please him and Elly. Someone needed to point that out to him and I think it was a great scene.

A great read Michael, I do have one question. When I click on Tempest's bio on the site nothing comes up but the regular file not found notice. I clicked over the last few episode to try and put a face with Tempest but I'm not getting her file.

Keep up the great work and I look forward to seeing how the car chase turns out!

Kelly

[kira]

Holy crap, Michael, I'm on tenterhooks with this Tim/Samantha/Diane situation. Fabulous action sequence.

It is kickass that my boy Tim was smart enough to run into Diane's office and communicate everything to her. That's thinking on your feet! Obviously Diane, the mother lion that she is, is the perfect person to team up with. I almost feel sorry for JD. You do not want to put Diane's kid in danger! (And nice subtle reference to his years in exile at the top of the scene w/Angelica... You know how much I sympathize with Tim, and sometimes I feel I'm more frustrated/angry about his having lost all those years than he is! I understand he's wanted to 'move past' all that shit, but sometimes I feel it's been too easy for him to do so. Someone needs to have a long memory in this town! Sadly, and bizarrely to me, none of Tim's relatives do -- at least, they don't hold the slightest grudges anymore. And no, Travis's truculent pissiness later on doesn't count. More on this later. (Yeah, aren't you psyched?!)

OMG Samantha is a LOTR fan! Now she's definitely cemented herself as a fave. Geek love! I only just started watching the trilogy last summer, and am totally obsessed by it ... actually I'm going through all the commentaries/appendicies of the DVDs this month, so this is very timely for me. I mean, I'd have gotten this reference before (obv. Gollum's a classic literary character), but this was a hoot, and such a nice little character-defining moment here. Plus with the plot surrounding a ring, the reference/joke is so awesome that I'm pissed that I didn't pick up on this possible gag before!

Okay, and now Travis/Ryan. Le sigh. As you know, since I've been boring you with it for years now: I've been drooling to see someone give Ryan shit for what he did to Tim, and if anyone was gonna do it, it'd be one of Tim's kids. But only Travis, freakin'Travis, would manage to be such a little selfish putz that his father's situation is just there to be used as a toss-away little reference. WTF? What kind of self-centered jerk is this kid? I was holding out hope that Travis would be shown showing understandable hatred and mistrust, but instead we get his trying to take advantage of his so-called uncle's plotting abilities. I say so-called because I find it unfathomable that Travis really thinks of Ryan as his uncle after all this.

Jeeze, am I really that unusual here? If you hurt someone I love, you are on my shitlist permanently, and would have to do some serious, major atonement before I could ever think of allowing you into my life again. I wouldn't slap on a hoodie and bop over to your house in order to use you to ... I don't even really know what Travis was hoping for in this situation. The kid doesn't strike me as being very bright. (Then again, maybe that's why he didn't get into any good schools! Not that I have any room to judge.)

I can't help but think this is more of the woobification of Ryan. This may not have been your intention, but the scene almost tried to get us on Ryan's side by JerkyTravis being all mean to him, somehow managing to make Travis's (perfectly justified) resentment of what Ryan did seem callow! Which is bushwah, and it ain't flying with me, young Mr. Ross. Man, check out Ryan responding to Travis's "you tried framing my dad for murder" with "I made some bad mistakes." Gee ya think?! Nice sidestep, you jerk. And his Obi-wan Kenobi act, all sage and wise as he counsels young padawan Travis (who's about as likeable as young Anni) how important it is to think about others and not manipulate people. Hypocrite! HATE.

Now the only hope left for some good old fashioned righteous indignation is Samantha. Come on, girl. I can't quite see how this would come up, but considering the dangerous situation she's in now, perhaps we'll be fortunate enough to get a lot of juicy Tim/Samantha scenes. Technically I'd also hope for some major resentment from Bill, but Paula's got his cojones locked in a bear trap.

Sorry, quite a tangent there, and I know you'll understandably defend this whole thing, and everyone else is on your side, and I'm totally wrong and unreasonable and judgmental. But eh, I react emotionally to storylines, and what can I say, these are my instincts. I fully acknowledge my own grudge-holding isn't 100% healthy either! And yet to me, there's something creepy, something Stepfordy, in people who can shrug off huge traumas and move on. There's nothing I adore so much in storytelling as the ability to have characters continue to be affected by things that happen to them, even if it was years ago, even if other characters have moved on. Life events, at least in my experience, aren't encapsulated: they leak and seep into our psyches, years and decades later, no matter how much we want to think they've been forgotten. One of the strongest aspects of FP is that there are often little plot callbacks to things from the past. The Loretta arc, obviously, being a bigger example of this. I'd be digging even more callbacks, but psychological ones.

All righty, shutting up on my Johnny-one-note hobby horse. So back to Samantha/Tim/Diane/Tempest/JD/Cassandra! Full of thrills here, from Diane's rare terrified mode (she's usually so in-control!) to Tim's focused effort to fix things to Samantha's desperate plan to save the situation to that surprisingly touching moment of Tempest telling Sam 'you're doing a great job'. Now normally I'd be happy/relieved to hear sirens: the cavalry is coming! But this is the KBPD we're talking about. The Keystone Kops are bound to fuck things up! Things are about to get ugly, methinks. Plus there's no way in hell JD is really going to let these kids go; as if he'd really think he could just drive to... uh, wherever the bank is, I forget... with a stolen car and no recriminations whatsoever! Tim's absolutely right not to trust this psycho.

Loving the hell out of this whole scenario, Michael! Tightly written and yet with plenty of character moments you do so well. I'd actually prefer episode production to move a little more slowly just so you could maybe flesh these moments out a little more (things feel a bit sparse this month) but if this is what you need to do in order to move things forward to your satisfaction, do what you gotta do!

...aaaand I'm pretty sure this comment is like a third as long as the whole episode.

[Andy Eckles]

I think I was reading this entire episode with white-knuckles! Very gripping scenes in the car and at Tim and Diane's office. I thought it was very funny that Samantha was plotting an escape the whole time. She certainly takes after her mother. I can see Diane refusing to allow something like this to happen to her - instead fighting tooth and nail for a way out.

Speaking of Diane, one of my all-time faves in Kings Bay, I agree with Kira that it was a nice change to see her actually frightened about something for a change, something that she can't control. Her inability to sit still while on the phone with the police, and getting frustrated with them at the same time was great. As I've said before, any scene with her is always done so well.

Tempest didn't say much in this one except for the classic "ah, shit" at the very end. I'm wondering if she's as scared as Samantha. Maybe being from the street she's used to this type of thing? I know, unlikely, but truthfully both girls seem to be holding up remarkably well in the face of a madman with a gun, torrential rain, AND the freeway!

I too thought it was a bit brazen of Travis to trot on up to Ryan asking him to manipulate the situation with Danielle and Elly. But I don't think he has a filter from saying or doing certain things so it pretty much goes with his character.

More episodes, please.

[Cruella]

Heh, I agree, Kira. I can't even imagine my reaction to a person who would try to SET UP MY MOM FOR MURDER! (They are welcome to set up my daddy). Permanent murderous rage is what comes to mind. The fact that Travis used to love Ryan should only make it worse, more painful.

And "remarkably stupid things" isn't how I'd call putting innocent man into jail for what, maybe only 15 years due to PTSD defense? "Remarkably cruel things" is more like it. "Ah, still remember the times when I tried to put my brother to jail so I could continue to bang his wife... Ah, what a moron I was really, love, it makes us do such silly things!"
I guess Ryan is pulling Jaime Lannister on us, "The things I do for love... *shove*" Of course, Ryan is not as cool as Jaime but then who is? He's welcome to shove Travis from the window, in any case.

Poor Tim, some luck he has...

Samantha is cool, although LOTR references won't endear one to me - now, Bakker references, that'd be different. Maybe JD can exclaim "Demon! Demon! For a thousand years! Fucking your wives! Strangling your children! Striking down your fathers! For a thousand years I have stalked you!" or something.
But her presence of mind is admirable. She's pretty badass.

Police fucking things up is pretty natural thing. And the death came swirling down....

Yes, that was weird post...

[kira]

Ha! I guess the message to take away from this thread is: don't screw around with an Eastern European woman. Apparently we have long memories and are pretty vicious. Maybe it's the harsh wind of the Steppes in our blood.

(BTW, to save folks a Google trip: Jaime Lannister is apparently a reference to George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire .)

I should mention that I totally understand a few fictional cast members, or even most of 'em, deciding to forgive the man who directly or indirectly caused such pain to their family/loved ones. (And as far as I'm concerned, Ryan's guilt doesn't stop at just Tim's frame-up; the whole mess of the Claire/Ryan wedding can be laid at his feet too, indirectly, e.g. Brent's lost leg, Sarah's dead baby, the breakup of Sarah/Matt's marriage, and all the lesser traumas that must've resulted from the experience.) What beggars my imagination is that no one still considers Ryan persona non grata. The police chief who lost a leg due to Ryan is okay with leaving his own kids with him in close proximity, for God's sake! I can't believe that not a single person in town is resentful. The only person who is, Travis, is still willing to go to the guy for help with a romantic problem, and his grudge ended up seeming like an extension of his perma-pissy mood, with Ryan taking the role of Mr. Reasonable.

So to sum up my rambling: I don't at all expect everyone on canvas to react according to my own weird standards. That way lies madness! (Or at least a Greek tragedy.) But neither would I expect everyone to have blithely forgiven/forgotten someone's misdeeds. Trouble is, we're running out of characters whose feelings toward Ryan haven't already been established as "well, it's been a few years, and the guy shares a few genes with us, so let's get over it." That's why I'm left holding out hope for Samantha -- I don't think we've seen her POV on the whole thing, at least not recently.

Ah well. Maybe the King's Bay local government puts Prozac in the drinking water?

Hopefully Michael sees this discussion as being a compliment to the passion his series inspires in its audience! What writers aren't delighted to have so much debate about their work ... especially when it's triggered by love?

[Michael]

Thanks so much for all the comments, everyone. I’ll do my best to wade through and respond accordingly. First off, the big issue:

Originally Posted by kira

Okay, and now Travis/Ryan. Le sigh. As you know, since I've been boring you with it for years now: I've been drooling to see someone give Ryan shit for what he did to Tim, and if anyone was gonna do it, it'd be one of Tim's kids. But only Travis, freakin'Travis, would manage to be such a little selfish putz that his father's situation is just there to be used as a toss-away little reference. WTF? What kind of self-centered jerk is this kid? I was holding out hope that Travis would be shown showing understandable hatred and mistrust, but instead we get his trying to take advantage of his so-called uncle's plotting abilities. I say so-called because I find it unfathomable that Travis really thinks of Ryan as his uncle after all this.

...

I can't help but think this is more of the woobification of Ryan. This may not have been your intention, but the scene almost tried to get us on Ryan's side by JerkyTravis being all mean to him, somehow managing to make Travis's (perfectly justified) resentment of what Ryan did seem callow! Which is bushwah, and it ain't flying with me, young Mr. Ross. Man, check out Ryan responding to Travis's "you tried framing my dad for murder" with "I made some bad mistakes." Gee ya think?! Nice sidestep, you jerk. And his Obi-wan Kenobi act, all sage and wise as he counsels young padawan Travis (who's about as likeable as young Anni) how important it is to think about others and not manipulate people. Hypocrite! HATE.

Wait, really?! In all honesty, I’m totally thrown by this reaction. While writing that scene, I seriously thought, “Oh, Kira will enjoy this, because Travis isn’t cutting Ryan any slack.”

!!!

I mean, I get why you’re irked by Ryan’s “I made some poor decisions” reaction, because, no shit, Ryan. But it strikes me as the right thing for him to say. As for Travis, I truly didn’t intend for any of what he was thinking and saying to come off as biased or “woobifying” Ryan. I’m actually kind of lost, re-reading the scene, as to how it came off that way, because I thought Travis was being his usual bratty self but, for once, voicing things people wanted to hear. Such as:

He wonders how Ryan can stand to live in the house where his father was killed (or so they thought)--even worse, where Ryan himself shot the man.

“Yeah, so you framed him for murder.” Travis can’t believe that the man standing before him was once like a father to him, was very nearly his stepfather. That all seems like a different lifetime.

“That’s not what I’m doing to Elly,” Travis says. The comparison is bullshit.

He thought that if there were one person he could count on for a little manipulating, it would be his uncle.

He doesn’t know why he expected anything more out of a guy who would’ve let Travis’s dad spend the rest of his life in prison for something he didn’t even do.

Sorry if I’m coming off a little nuts/defensive, but this is seriously one of those moments where I’m questioning how the intent of my work translates for readers. I thought Travis was going into the house thinking it was weird and creepy for Ryan to live there, constantly thinking about how Ryan framed Tim for the shooting, and not putting stock in Ryan’s “life lesson” about Claire. I truly don’t know how to respond other than to state what my intent with this scene was. I deliberately set it from Travis’s POV rather than Ryan’s so that I could hit these notes.

Originally Posted by kira

I say so-called because I find it unfathomable that Travis really thinks of Ryan as his uncle after all this.

I certainly don’t think he regards him as a dear old uncle, but it would be weird for him not to think of him as being the biological sibling of his father, wouldn’t it? I guess I don’t see what the “issue” is here. He more or less grew up calling the guy “Uncle Ryan.” I still think of my mom’s brother’s ex-wife as “Aunt Michelle” even though she cheated on him and then tried to take all his money in a nasty divorce.

Originally Posted by Cruella

Heh, I agree, Kira. I can't even imagine my reaction to a person who would try to SET UP MY MOM FOR MURDER! (They are welcome to set up my daddy). Permanent murderous rage is what comes to mind. The fact that Travis used to love Ryan should only make it worse, more painful.

Oh, totally. Since the rest of the family had Ryan at Thanksgiving dinner this year, and they’ve all taken the lead on moving past what Ryan did (led largely by Tim being forced to work with the guy on that damn book!), I figured Travis would regard him more with quiet contempt than “I’M GONNA KILL YOU” rage. Especially since he wants something out of him in this scene.

Originally Posted by Dallas

Travis going to Ryan was a great twist too. The best part was when Travis was thinking to himself that he wanted to get manipulation advice and he went to Ryan.

Honestly, that’s all I was going for here. Travis sees Ryan as someone who doesn’t mind using people or screwing them over, and he needs something out of him. He might’ve paused about asking, say, Molly to manipulate Danielle, but he figures Ryan would be game.

Moving along...

Originally Posted by kira

Holy crap, Michael, I'm on tenterhooks with this Tim/Samantha/Diane situation. Fabulous action sequence. ...
OMG Samantha is a LOTR fan! Now she's definitely cemented herself as a fave. Geek love!

Awesome! Thanks. As I said in another post, I’m loving Samantha. The way her mind works makes her a lot of fun to write. And I’m thrilled the action is working for you. You know I struggle with writing this stuff, and I never quite know how it’s going to play.

Originally Posted by kira

Plus there's no way in hell JD is really going to let these kids go; as if he'd really think he could just drive to... uh, wherever the bank is, I forget... with a stolen car and no recriminations whatsoever! Tim's absolutely right not to trust this psycho.

He hasn’t specified a destination, but the truth is, he’s just taken them as mobile hostages. (The bank is in Houston, so, uh, not driving there.)

Originally Posted by Andy Eckles

Speaking of Diane, one of my all-time faves in Kings Bay, I agree with Kira that it was a nice change to see her actually frightened about something for a change, something that she can't control. Her inability to sit still while on the phone with the police, and getting frustrated with them at the same time was great. As I've said before, any scene with her is always done so well.

I actually hadn’t planned to insert those notes into the episode, but when it came time to show Diane’s reaction, I thought, “We never get to see her in this mode!” It was an interesting journey to another part of her. If Diane had her way, she’d be running down the freeway chasing after the car, so to leave her unable to do anything like that was intriguing.

Originally Posted by Dallas

I also thought it was great how Cassandra was apologizing only for Tim to not really care to hear it. Such a natural instinct to only care about your child being safe. I'm totally curious to see what'll happen now that the cops are on their trail.

That was really important to me, in terms of Tim’s reaction. He’s not the type to be distracted from something so terrifying by taking the time out to scream at someone else for causing it.

Originally Posted by capekeintrich

I am the first to admit that I haven't been Tempest's biggest fan but this was a great read. I loved how it was fast paced, it reminded me of a scenes on a crime drama I loved it. Samantha/Tim were great her, made me really like a teen character to kudos.

Oh, great! I know you aren’t too much a fan of teen characters in general, so if you’re enjoying Sam, I’ll consider that a big victory.

Originally Posted by capekeintrich

When I click on Tempest's bio on the site nothing come sup but the regular file not found notice. I clicked over the last few episode to try and put a face with Tempest but I'm not getting her file.

Whoops! Thank you for pointing that out. How weird. I just (re-?)uploaded her bio, so it should be functional now. Sorry for the glitchiness.

Originally Posted by kira

I'd actually prefer episode production to move a little more slowly just so you could maybe flesh these moments out a little more (things feel a bit sparse this month) but if this is what you need to do in order to move things forward to your satisfaction, do what you gotta do!

I know. I’d like to have room for a little more of everything, too, but it’s the trade-off of keeping stuff moving. It’s also a great exercise in being as concise as I can be while still inserting some character stuff, which at least appears to be coming across. Very valuable for my chosen profession...

Originally Posted by Cruella

Yes, that was weird post...

Heh. Good to see you back, Cruella! Hope you’re doing all right.

[Michael]

Looks like we were responding at the same time, Kira!

Originally Posted by kira

I should mention that I totally understand a few fictional cast members, or even most of 'em, deciding to forgive the man who directly or indirectly caused such pain to their family/loved ones. (And as far as I'm concerned, Ryan's guilt doesn't stop at just Tim's frame-up; the whole mess of the Claire/Ryan wedding can be laid at his feet too, indirectly, e.g. Brent's lost leg, Sarah's dead baby, the breakup of Sarah/Matt's marriage, and all the lesser traumas that must've resulted from the experience.) What beggars my imagination is that no one still considers Ryan persona non grata. The police chief who lost a leg due to Ryan is okay with leaving his own kids with him in close proximity, for God's sake! I can't believe that not a single person in town is resentful. The only person who is, Travis, is still willing to go to the guy for help with a romantic problem, and his grudge ended up seeming like an extension of his perma-pissy mood, with Ryan taking the role of Mr. Reasonable.

So to sum up my rambling: I don't at all expect everyone on canvas to react according to my own weird standards. That way lies madness! (Or at least a Greek tragedy.) But neither would I expect everyone to have blithely forgiven/forgotten someone's misdeeds. Trouble is, we're running out of characters whose feelings toward Ryan haven't already been established as "well, it's been a few years, and the guy shares a few genes with us, so let's get over it." That's why I'm left holding out hope for Samantha -- I don't think we've seen her POV on the whole thing, at least not recently.

That's perfectly valid. I guess, from a writer's standpoint, I don't have much use, in a pretty tight family drama with a smallish cast, for a character who has that much baggage in every interaction with other characters. I feel like I've tried to address the issues and the semi-getting-past-it, but maybe what it comes down to is that Ryan isn't a viable character for the series.

I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this, actually. I like inserting bits like Travis thinking he's a creep, Brent not being pleased about Danielle dating him, the Fishers only having him over because Jason insisted on it, etc., but if that stuff feels inauthentic, I'd rather be done with the character than keep forcing situations.

[kira]

Ooh I think we simulposted there, Michael. I squeezed in another post up above you.

I’m actually kind of lost, re-reading the scene, as to how it came off that way, because I thought Travis was being his usual bratty self but, for once, voicing things people wanted to hear. Such as:

(Bolding mine.) But that's exactly it! Travis was being his usual bratty self, and you may not realize it, but that's how the author's voice read: Travis's "resentment" of Ryan (easily brushed aside when convenient to Travis's needs) is an extension of his spoiled bratitude.

When you put a certain POV in the mouth (or the mind) of a character who's established as a jerky, self-involved, spoiled brat, you risk ending up with the POV being easily dismissed as just being part and parcel of said jerkiness, self-involvement, and brattiness.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the description of the Moriani house from Travis's perspective; lots of nice details there. It's not like Travis came across as false, characterwise... assuming he's turning into kind of a skeevy, shallow young guy. My issue was that his resentment wasn't shown to be reasonable -- to the contrary, it seemed unreasonable, flighty, and just another unpleasant aspect of this little pisher's teenaged moodiness. Not a genuinely-held belief.

Someone who really held a man responsible for his father's trevails -- a normal kid (IOW not like Benji on Blackthornes or Eric on Guasti Cose) -- wouldn't be willing to ignore this fact to ask for help with how to be a manipulative bastard. (And it wasn't like a desperate, last-minute move. Travis's first thought when confronted with a problem was: "hey I guess I'll go see the guy who framed my dad up for murder for lessons on how to be an evil genius and plot for fun and profit nookie.")

Anyway I don't want to continue boring the universe with this debate, so I'll shut up. Thanks for being a good sport and tolerating my rambling! I wouldn't harp on this stuff if I didn't love your work and it didn't inspire such strong feelings.

I guess, from a writer's standpoint, I don't have much use, in a pretty tight family drama with a smallish cast, for a character who has that much baggage in every interaction with other characters. I feel like I've tried to address the issues and the semi-getting-past-it, but maybe what it comes down to is that Ryan isn't a viable character for the series.

Wait, is it really that much 'baggage' to continue to dislike someone who tried to destroyed your loved ones' lives? Does everyone have to like everyone in town? Now that I don't get, either from a writer's perspective or a human. That doesn't mean Ryan's untenable as a character, not at all! Just saying that not everyone should be able to tolerate welcoming the guy into their lives.

Shutting up now.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by kira

But that's exactly it! Travis was being his usual bratty self, and you may not realize it, but that's how the author's voice read: Travis's "resentment" of Ryan (easily brushed aside when convenient to Travis's needs) is an extension of his spoiled bratitude.

When you put a certain POV in the mouth (or the mind) of a character who's established as a jerky, self-involved, spoiled brat, you risk ending up with the POV being easily dismissed as just being part and parcel of said jerkiness, self-involvement, and brattiness.

Okay, that makes sense. I guess the best I can do is to say that I wanted Travis and Ryan to interact, and that was the natural way for Travis to react to him -- because it's how he is with everyone, but he genuinely resents Ryan (whereas when he's bratty with, say, Tim, it's pretty clear he doesn't hate him). So I get where you're coming from.

Originally Posted by kira

Wait, is it really that much 'baggage' to continue to dislike someone who tried to destroyed your loved ones' lives? Does everyone have to like everyone in town? Now that I don't get, either from a writer's perspective or a human. That doesn't mean Ryan's untenable as a character, not at all! Just saying that not everyone should be able to tolerate welcoming the guy into their lives.

To me, it's not a story about a "town," but about one family. If Ryan isn't a viable character for "normal" interactions -- that is, discussing ongoing stories with people, having romantic involvements that don't isolate him from everyone else, and the like -- then I don't have much use for him. As it is, he hasn't been in scenes with too many characters for years, because the Fishers cut him out for so long, and all the characters are so tightly tied together. There isn't really a romantic interest he could have who isn't tied in closely with the people he's wronged -- Danielle or Lauren are probably the most removed options, and they're not really removed at all -- so if his past deeds are such a big issue that they need to dominate his interactions with everyone (rather than sort of shade them, with people resenting him or being irked), then he's not a very viable character for me in this particular cast, short of making him a full-out villain. If this were a more ASF or Guasti Cose-type series, I think he could work well as a permanent pariah, but I'm not sure how to use him in a series with like 20 people, most of whom are related.

ETA: Okay, upon re-reading, I think I can articulate this more effectively. If, say, Tim, Molly, Jason, and Brent hated Ryan so much they wouldn't even be in the same room as him, while Sarah, Paula, and Claire (or whoever) slowly came around to accepting him, then I think it all starts to feel very disloyal and shitty. Like, the people who do accept him look like assholes, which is an interesting short-term conflict, but in the long term, it starts to feel like some Fisher Civil War, which is not a/the story I'm interested in doing for a sustained amount of time. Because everyone's so tied together, it either comes to a head and gets resolved(-ish), or there's a fairly significant, permanent schism. What I've attempted to do is give everyone an outlet for processing what Ryan did at different paces -- Tim through working on the book, Molly and Brent because of Danielle, Jason (who wouldn't even speak to him before) following Court's death, etc. -- and then move toward acceptance (not forgiveness). Doesn't mean I've done it well, but I do believe the pieces are all visible in the episodes. I like the concept of people holding firm grudges and never accepting him back into their lives, but I don't feel it's sustainable in a series with this sort of shape. Furthermore, I'm not sure how he works as an integrated character -- except as a Big Bad -- if there's that level of hatred coming from the Fishers. Travis went to him because he knew Ryan had access to the person Travis needs, but if that comes off as disloyal or "Oh well, I hate him but I'll use him when I need him, family be damned," I don't know that it's possible -- at least, for a writer at my skill level; someone else might be able to handle it more deftly -- to give Ryan any interactions at all without that overshadowing any actual story. If he were to pursue interactions with the Fishers himself, he'd be harassing them, and if any of them come to him, it feels like they're betraying their loved ones.

Whew. Thanks for the debate.

[capekeintrich]

To me it seems that people perhaps are wanting Ryan to be this all out villain on Footprints, which from reading the series for a very long time I am not understanding. Ryan is Tim/Sarah/Molly's half brother, he makes mistakes. To get rid of him or write him as a villain would make no sense in my opinion.

I've always felt Travis was an annoying spoiled rotten little brat. I don't think he has ever excused what Ryan has done to his family on the other hand I don't believe that he hates Ryan to the extent that Kira and Cruella think he should. Travis was there to throw a pitch fit about Elly, period I don't think we went to confront Ryan about all the crap he has done to his family. Ryan on the other hand I applauded Travis needs to grow up, in my opinion.

Ryan has done some nasty crap over the years but I don't think it is any worse than some of the other characters I have read over the years on other series. Ryan's, rehabilitation should take some time with the Fisher's I think and you have done a great job of building that up Michael. I would rather Ryan stick around for the strained sibling vibe than him disappear and we have to deal with the next big Sarah/Molly rivalry, or Tim and his many women. Ryan adds something to the Fishers that I think are needed, he adds that bit of tension because of what he has done to them.

Just my two cents.

Kelly

[kira]

To me it seems that people perhaps are wanting Ryan to be this all out villain on Footprints

OMG yes!! That is absolutely what I was saying! I'm totally advocating that Ryan should be a mustachioed, Snidely Whiplash kinda guy, going "muah-ha-ha" and maybe wearing a cape. (There aren't nearly enough cape-wearers in webseries, do you notice that? Why is that?)

Make mustachioed Ryan happen, Michael. I won't rest until I see this.

[Ira]

In a sense, I do understand what Michael is saying. FP is very different from GC, which is more of a "soap canvas" than FP. As traditional as the series is, it's very much like Ryan's Hope, where we focus on one family. But in any other series, like my own, I can have say Michael Hanley be alienated from the Moores but still interact with his own family and other people in town who have no family loyalties to the Moores. But this series focuses so much on the Fishers, what can Ryan do? It's even a lot different than say, if Sarah did all of this stuff. Because she was raised by the Fishers. She has intrinsic relationships with them that Ryan just doesn't have, by the nature of being a long-lost son. So if Sarah pulled all of this shit on Molly, the family would take time, but they'd eventually forgive her. The situation would be about the same as with Ryan now perhaps, but there wouldn't be a question of "why are these people so nice to her?" because they grew up with her and raised her.

I happen to like the Ryan situation now, but I get why it's frustrating to others. I've suggested that Ryan could become a "sorta" villain, but even then we'd be back in the same boat. Hmph. Just my two cents. I don't know if they helped.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by capekeintrich

To me it seems that people perhaps are wanting Ryan to be this all out villain on Footprints, which from reading the series for a very long time I am not understanding. Ryan is Tim/Sarah/Molly's half brother, he makes mistakes. To get rid of him or write him as a villain would make no sense in my opinion.

I agree that I don't want to see him as a flat-out villain, though I'm not sure that's what people are advocating in this thread -- in regards to how he's treated, perhaps, because I think there's a segment of the readership that feels he's pulled too much shit to ever be accepted by the Fishers again. That's sort of the core of what I'm wondering here, if I've underestimated the severity of Ryan's misdeeds and should give up trying to re-integrate him.

Originally Posted by capekeintrich

Ryan has done some nasty crap over the years but I don't think it is any worse than some of the other characters I have read over the years on other series. Ryan's, rehabilitation should take some time with the Fisher's I think and you have done a great job of building that up Michael. I would rather Ryan stick around for the strained sibling vibe than him disappear and we have to deal with the next big Sarah/Molly rivalry, or Tim and his many women. Ryan adds something to the Fishers that I think are needed, he adds that bit of tension because of what he has done to them.

I definitely like that he adds this outside tension to the Fishers, who are both a bit bland as an overall unit (there's lots I like about them individually, from a writer's perspective, but I freely admit I haven't made them that compelling as a whole family in terms of the group dynamics). I'm with you on finding Ryan very valuable for that alone.

Originally Posted by kira

OMG yes!! That is absolutely what I was saying! I'm totally advocating that Ryan should be a mustachioed, Snidely Whiplash kinda guy, going "muah-ha-ha" and maybe wearing a cape. (There aren't nearly enough cape-wearers in webseries, do you notice that? Why is that?)

Make mustachioed Ryan happen, Michael. I won't rest until I see this.

Obviously, this was meant sarcastically, but it kind of makes me wonder... Is there another role for Ryan in the series, aside from going Big Bad with him? Kira, do you think that what he's done is too much to get past, as a reader? (Not sure if you're done commenting on the issue, but see my post above re: family loyalties and the difficulty I've found in having too much divided Fisher reaction to him.)

Originally Posted by Ira

In a sense, I do understand what Michael is saying. FP is very different from GC, which is more of a "soap canvas" than FP. As traditional as the series is, it's very much like Ryan's Hope, where we focus on one family. But in any other series, like my own, I can have say Michael Hanley be alienated from the Moores but still interact with his own family and other people in town who have no family loyalties to the Moores. But this series focuses so much on the Fishers, what can Ryan do? It's even a lot different than say, if Sarah did all of this stuff. Because she was raised by the Fishers. She has intrinsic relationships with them that Ryan just doesn't have, by the nature of being a long-lost son. So if Sarah pulled all of this shit on Molly, the family would take time, but they'd eventually forgive her. The situation would be about the same as with Ryan now perhaps, but there wouldn't be a question of "why are these people so nice to her?" because they grew up with her and raised her.

That's exactly what I was trying to say in my post above. I don't really know how to work with Ryan if he's in a permanent exile, especially as I'm trying to pare down the scope of the series so I don't have a bunch of non-core stories floating on the fringes.

This brings to mind, in a way, characters like Jack Deveraux on Days of Our Lives. He raped Kayla, and after a redemption arc, was re-integrated into the cast. His brother, Steve, who is Kayla's true love, accepted him, and Kayla's family, the Bradys, were happy to have Jack around, and even Kayla could be around him and interact normally (though not without some tension between them). I was hoping to do something similar with Ryan -- though I don't think I'm capable of writing it as skillfully as that story seems to have been done -- but now I'm not sure it can be pulled off.

Further thoughts? This is really useful to me as I continue planning FP.